Aerospace Scheme Updates & Requirements

Click here for a copy of the slides.

This video will highlight:

• The requirement for mandatory audit planning time and input from the client organisation

• New risk and performance based assessment time calculation

• Changes to the audit time requirements with a 10% addition or reduction

• Opportunity for reducing audit time by up to 50%

• New transfer rules

• Auditor rotation

• New site structures with the removal of campus and several

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VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Aerospace Scheme Updates

00:06 - Good morning good afternoon hopefully everyone can hear me, should be able to see my screen already. A few more people probably starting to join but we'll get cracking.
 
00:21 - Just a few little housekeeping things, this is being recorded and the slides will be sent out feel free to take pictures as you go along but we will send them out by email afterwards you should see a little question box everyone's on mute at the moment but as we go along if you do have any questions you can just type them out
 
00:43 - and I’ll get around to answering them. I’ll probably wait till the end to answer unless there's anything really pressing that see pops up but just feel free to drop them in there don't need to speak don't need to show cameras or anything like that okay.

Tutor

01:03 - Oops slide's going funny okay so my name Michael Venner, a lot of you on here already know me I can see a lot of familiar names on there. I’ve been doing this for almost about 20 years now.
 
01:19 - I’m the aerospace and automotive director for NQA, previous to that, another certification body that some of you know me from there but being with NQA probably about two years now. Okay and I mostly look after the aerospace and automotive schemes. I’ll say slides will be distributed afterwards so you'll get copies of everything we're about to go through.

Topics

01:49 - Right topics for today we're mostly covering the forthcoming changes to the standard so although AS9100 or AS9120 standards such as that aren't changing themselves the accreditation rules are changing, they're the rules that we have to follow.
 
02:10 - So, when those change they have a knock-on impact to clients that you need to be aware of the changes aren't imminent but you're probably talking the next 12 months.
 
02:23 - So, certain things within your management systems that you might have to tweak to meet the new requirements, we'll put something out more formally sort of nearer the time. But you should hopefully if you get this sort of awareness now you can start to implement some of these changes. So, as I say it's not directly changes on the standard itself but there are new rules coming that we're going to have to impose onto organizations.
 
02:52 - Especially from an audit planning perspective so it's good to be aware of those. So times are going to change your audit calculations, they're changing quite dramatically so we'll go through those auditor rotations site structures things like that they're all going to change.
 
03:12 - Coming up all depends on your organization, how big the change is going to be. But every organization will have some change, some are small, some are big okay.
 
AUDIT DURATIONS

03:27 - Excuse me, okay so one of the big changes that is coming in are audit durations. There's a new calculation tool that I'm going to go into a little bit more detail for calculating audit time. So at the moment, the standard is quite explicit in if you're five
 
03:48 - employees for example we must do one and a half days. That's all changing they've created this new tool called the OCAP Tool, which is a risk-based process for calculating audit time which I'm going to go into a little bit more detail and give you some examples of how that will work in reality.

04:08 - The OCAP Tool takes a lot of preparation and planning and we need client inputs for those which is a newer requirement that's coming in, which is going to require some specific audit plan in time at the front of every single audit not just at the start of a new organization.
 
04:26 - Every single audit and all clients are going to have to put input into that for us to enable us to calculate the audit time and failure to do so can actually raise non-conformances. It's going to be a specific requirement for that but I’ll go into a little bit more detail.
 
04:45 - And they're going to, they're going to allow us to adapt the audit time a little bit more as well so, at the moment, it's quite black and white you must do sort of two days three days something like that.
 
04:57 - But what they're allowing us to do going forward is to actually manipulate that time a little bit more, if there's certain clauses that you're not necessarily doing in your organization so, it will be more applicable to multiple site organizations if someone's not doing sort of sales on one site or purchasing things like that, we can reduce the time okay. Again I'm going to go into a little bit more detail on that shortly. 
 
SITE STRUCTURES

05:27 - Site structures this is one of the bigger changes also, currently there's five different structures that you can have as an organization, it can be single site, multiple site, campus several, or complex. There are only actually two complex structures in the world.
 
05:45 - I’m assuming people on here aren't part of those so we can ignore those, campus and several site that that will impact quite a few clients possibly on this core or consultants.
 
05:58 - Those two structures are going along with complex they're just reverting to a single site to multi-site, which was ironic something many years ago that they had only single site, multi-site and they brought in these other structures but now they're taking them away again.
 
06:15 - Okay if you're currently a several site or a complex organization you will switch over to the multi-site structures, won't be a huge amount of impact on you the days are probably work out roughly the same. However, if you're a campus structure it could be quite different you can actually go one way or the other, you could turn into a single site
 
06:41 - or you could turn into a multi-site. That's something we're going to have to discuss with all campus organizations nearer the time. What it's kind of boiling down to is if you require the address on the certificate you'll switch over to a multi-site, if you don't you can then switch to a single site. So obviously that structure is going to have a
 
07:03 - huge impact on the time and currently campus structure is quite beneficial, it's a very small amount of time addition currently in the current structure. So obviously if you're going from campus to a multi-site in the future that could have huge implications on your audit time.
 
07:22 - So, when I say about if you need the address on the certificate it might sound quite strange but as an example, some organizations will have like another unit over the road the overflow of work or storage things like that, so if you've got a unit over the road from your main address that's purely used for storage of maybe tools or raw materials something like that, you may not actually need
 
07:50 - that address on the certificate because it's purely for storage. We'll still need to audit it but it's not something that you're sort of shipping from. So those organizations can switch to a single site, that's the example where it can go one way or the other.
 
08:08 - But if you're sort of manufacturing from the other site you know you sort of customer communications things like that that's going to have to be on your certificate okay. So, you'll switch to a multi-site, but when i think back to the previous slide where it says we can then adjust time for each of the sites what we can start to do is say okay well this site over the road purely a machine shop,
 
08:34 - no design, no perks in, no sales, things like that we can actually reduce the time so it won't be as sort of impacted on you as much as what it might first see, so instead of two days it might just be one day, okay things like that. It's going to be on 
 
08:52 - a case-by-case basis really, with campus structures if you're already a single site and a multi-site there's not huge changes so you don't worry too much there's other changes but there's nothing really to the structures that you need to be worried about.
 
TRANSFER OF CERTIFICATION

09:11 - Okay transfer a certification. This is changing quite a bit for the better actually there's a few changes coming in currently, there's a requirement that if you transfer to another certification body we get quite a few of these where your certificate has got less than 12 months left on this certificate.
 
09:33 - So basically your next audit's a reassessment, there's a crazy rule at the moment, that requires an extra two days at least two days really assessment time to perform the transfer.
 
09:47 - That's going, we don't need  to worry about that, so all transfers no matter where you are in the cycle will just require one day transfer assessment, can be half a day just depends on the size of the organization. We don't need to put in any of the additional time that's currently on there.
 
10:06 - We have quite a few people wish to transfer currently and they're just going into their reassessment but their costs just it's not worth it's not beneficial purely because we have to add this extra time, so thankfully that's going.
 
10:22 - There's also a requirement though to switch out the auditors, many organizations will transfer and they'll keep the same auditor so we use quite a few contractors, transfer from our competitors, they transfer in and they get to keep the same auditor so there's a bit of consistency there.
 
10:42 - They've removed that so you can't have the same auditor now, if they were your auditor for the last two years, they can't then audit for another two years when you've transferred over.
 
10:55 - So they've kind of the ieqg with this kind of given with one hand taken with another so, there's pros and cons about this process.
 
AUDITORS

11:11 - The authors themselves there's a slight tweak to this, it's going to be a bit more internal management that we'll need to be careful of. So currently there's a requirement to change the auditors every six years, they've tweaked that slightly to every six audits, you might think that's the same and it is for most organizations,
 
11:34 - but we do have some clients that have a visit every six months. So the author would need to change every three years not six, so it's a slight tweak in the definition there. And currently the rules are that the lead auditor needs to switch out.
 
11:52 - So some of the larger organizations will have two auditors going in every time and then every six years the old to switch one from lead to the other one to a team member and then we just keep rotating that. It's kind of a trick in the system I suppose but they've stamped that out. They've
 
12:10 - basically said that no you can't do that the entire team needs to leave the order, leave this the certification cycle. The good news is though they've just said that's for one year, so there's some consistency still currently it's three years.
 
12:27 - So, every six years we have to take the lead auditor out, put a new one in for another three years and then cycle through, but they've just changed it to just once one year.

Audit Planning

12:40 - Excuse me okay I’ve already covered the transfer part so this is a specific requirement that's coming in, this is mostly around the OCAP Tool that I mentioned again we're going to go into a little bit more detail in this shortly. Organizations are going to be required to take part in the audit planning process, so every organization does at the moment, we three months before the assessment our system will send out a form, data gathering form that's emailed to every client.
 
13:15 - You have to fill that form in send it back and then we do our audit planning on that, they're getting much stricter on that going forward, there's a lot more detail going to have to be put into the audit planning process which I’m going to cover, you're going to have to present so much data six to three months before the assessment  is due. We will then have to produce the OCAP Tool.
 
13:41 - Which again I’m going to show you shortly, so we need certain amount of data of the client in order to do this so and there's a specific requirement in there that we will raise non-conformances if the client doesn't participate in this. So they're going to get quite strict on this so you really got to be quite active. If you do them currently the date gathering forms that are sent out that's great, it's really helpful to us we actually do, actually need them.
 
14:12 - If you don't you're going to have to get into the habit of doing those prior to the assessment.

Audit Durations

14:24 - Okay so we'll go on to the audit duration, so this is where I’m going to go a little bit more detail into the OCAP Tool because this is the bit that has the most influence.
 
14:33 - Okay, so say they've created this OCAP Tool which I’ll let you demonstrate shortly which we're going to have to go through. Currently this standard doesn't say about audit planning or audit time. Yeah that's now in the new standard so the audit calculation will actually generate audit planning time and audit report writing time and they've put 10 on for each one, that's a minimum.
 
15:00 - So, if we determine, which is quite common actually, that we need more time to do the audit report, we might say okay well we're going to have to add an extra 10% in the standard, what they're doing in the future is they're putting some specific time in there and we have to produce records for that. Okay obviously the record for the audit report is the audit report the record for the audit plan is the completed OCAP Tool. It's quite a detailed tool and I’m going to come on to that.
 
15:30 - There's actually, you can actually manipulate the time, one of the benefits of the OCAP Tool is you can reduce your audit time, at one point it can go up and another point it can actually come down.
 
15:48 - They're building it on a risk and performance-based calculation, it can swing either way but there's also another system in place where you can reduce it by up to 50%. So if you've been good you can actually capture your audit time in half which is obviously a huge cost saving for organization, so what they're trying to do is drive performance, so if your performance has been really good what it will do is reward you for that and say you can reduce your  audit time by up to 50%.
 
16:21 - I'm going to go into a little bit more detail on that show you how you can do that. That's these are some of the things you can start doing now to benefit from that, because there's certain things you have to put in place to meet that requirement,
 
16:33 - and they're allowing up to 50% audits remote which is good. Currently obviously everything we're allowed to do 100% that's during a covered pandemic but once that's gone, currently we can't do any well we can do a very small portion of assessment time remotely it's currently in the rules, but what they're doing is they're saying you can do up to 50% remotely going forward.
 
16:59 - Which will be quite beneficial because there are some benefits to remote auditing especially if we're looking at sort of internal audits management reviews sometimes that's good to do that off-site in your own time because you get to spend a bit more time on it and digest some of the information so that's a benefit there okay.

OCAP - Risk Analysis

17:23 - Okay so the OCAP Tool itself so, let's say it's going to work on a performance and risk-based approach so you'll see this risk assessment is going to include on-time delivery performance customer, complaints, KPI results, pair scores,
 
17:45 - internal auditor competence, and size and complexity of the site. Now the size and complexity of the site you possibly can't change can't influence too much but all the other elements you can, that's what they're saying is if you've got better KPI results, better on time delivery, your pair scores are good
 
18:06 - things like that you can reduce your audit time by up to ten percent. Yeah if your results aren't quite so good you could get 10% added to your audit time. Okay so I’m going to again I’m going to go into a little bit more detail in that shortly. But we have to evaluate this through the OCAP Tool before any assessment, this is where we need the data from the client organization,
 
18:33 - to input into this if you don't give us the data we'll just assume it's high risk and we'll add 10% so it's in your favour to actually present this data and present it accurately and in the format they require so you might need to tweak a few things on how you present your data again I’m going to come on to that in a minute. Okay I do you see your question Demi I’ll do that at the end.

OCAP Risk Assessment

19:00 - Right so here is just a small snapshot of one part of the OCAP Tool, okay so this highlights those key areas down the left-hand side.
 
19:13 - So, on time delivery, product service rating, customer complaints, feedback, performance from the previous audits, internal audit program, things like that okay and then what you'll see is we determine if it's low, medium or high risk for each of those categories.
 
19:34 - Yeah depending on the data that's presented, so low risk would mean your on-time delivery is exceeding the requirement there's a little trick to this which I’ll come on to in a minute it's not straightforward we're 100% on time delivery it's not that clear. Product service rating again, if you're exceeding requirement you go in low risk and we select the category for each of them and then out pops a number at the end so, on this one here you see risk number is 33.
 
20:04 - That puts you into a medium category of risk okay. That will then basically determine the audit time which I’ll come on to in a minute, but basically that will probably be no change to what you're currently doing. If your on-time delivery is not so good your product performance isn't good you got some complaints yeah your previous audits weren't so good you could go in the high risk
 
20:31 - and that's where that would then switch out to giving you 10% extra time. Okay and then likewise if it's low risk you get 10% reduction in time. So, for each of the categories I won't open the OCAP Tool in because it's huge mammoth excel sheet but I’ve taken some snapshots out of each category on the performance element to give you an idea of the types of information we're going to require.
 
OCAP RISK ASSESSMENT - OTD

20:59 - So, for on-time delivery this is their definition okay and it's not quite black and white.
 
21:11 - You know if you say your on-time delivery is 90% that doesn't mean you're at low medium or high risk, it's are you meeting 90% of the customers requirements okay so there's a slight difference.
 
21:27 - So, you won't be able to simply hand us over some data that shows your 90% on time delivery or 100% or whatever you need to kind of show that for each of the customers and then we'll have to evaluate whether 90% of the customers are actually being met on time. So, you're possibly going to have to tweak your KPI data that you're presenting slightly to make sure we get this information accurately.
 
21:56 - Okay so in the definition bit you'll see there right at the end of the first paragraph it references SCMH 7.11.2, that references the supply chain management handbook, that is on the oasis database. I don't know if anyone's had a look at it, it's worthwhile looking at there's lots of tools and information on the supply chain handbook
 
22:22 - everything's free it basically gives you guidance on how you can implement the standard and meet standard requirements. So if you're looking at a clause in the standard and you're not too clear what it means, if you actually go into the supply chain handbook it will give you a lot of information around that. So, what they're doing here is they're referring you to that document
 
22:44 - and i downloaded this document yesterday to actually give you some information on what they're expecting you to present and how you can measure your on-time delivery.
 
22:55 - So I recommend you actually look at that document I’ll say it's totally free just go on the oasis database look for supply chain management handbook and it's all in there okay.
 
OCAP RISK ASSESSMENT - QUALITY

23:07 - Likewise, around product service rating follows a similar process. So you know so you can't just present us with data for your top customers showing you're all great and then you've got another half you know 50% your customers are terrible it's trying to encourage you to improve your overall performance. Yep so that's where we would categorize low medium high for that again it's referring out to supply chain management handbook.
 
23:39 - So, I recommend you read that again for this one it's going to be presenting the data in certain format so I recommend you look at. It a lot of you will have the data already yeah the data's not going to necessarily change it's more the way you present it and you measure your KPIs. Yeah so, it's going to be a lot stricter and how they're presented they're putting a bit more sort of framework around it okay.
 
OCAP RISK ASSESSMENT - COMPLAINTS

24:11 - Customer complaints, quite self-explanatory now that's how they're categorizing it, that's a big spelling mistake in there, that's how yeah quite self-explanatory it will have to be a bit pragmatic the larger the organization and possibly there's going to be more non-performances so it's not going to be a number, it'll have to be a percentage driven they haven't actually given us that so we'll have to create that ourselves and determine what we feel is feasible okay.
 
OCAP RISK ASSESSMENT - KPIS

24:45 - The KPIs this is quite an easy one for us to do and this will be based around the pair KPIs yeah so as we're going through the pairs read the results on the previous reports and things like that. Obviously if you're a new organization you possibly won't have this data you should do but it's possibly not in the correct format so we might have to just sort of the new organizations just assume medium or high risk.
 
25:14 - Okay but again if you look at what they're asking for it's a low risk 90% at the KPI meet or exceed goals with a plan for shortfalls so that's kind of saying I don't know out of 10 of your KPIs, 9 of them are being met. Things like that so again it's the data's there it's just how you present it might be slightly different, we will sort of release something a bit more formal near the time because this stand is actually still in draft, it's not draft, it's kind of final graph.
 
25:47 - So, it hasn't formally been released yet but when they formally release it we'll put out some more information.

OCAP Tool – Audit Calculation – Medium Risk

25:55 - Right so this is the OCAP calculation, so once we've determined the risk based on all those previous slides, we then put the risk in, put the employee numbers in, put the visit type and then it starts spitting out some audit time.
 
26:14 - So, you'll see in there I’ve just made an example up here, 40 employees, it's a surveillance, medium risk, no design, so you'll see there when I’ve gone down on the reductions it started to take time off. Okay that's spat out a number of 1.6 days maximum reduction
 
26:37 - but it's saying my audit duration will be two days. So I’m just going to move my screen a bit, okay so you'll see there there's two different numbers there's object, duration and audit time. Audit duration is a physical audit duration on site where we're going to have to be auditing typically the eight-hour day type thing. The audit time is the time that's included for the audit reporting and audit planning perspective so that's the 20% they've added okay.
 
27:14 - The audit report could be off-site can be on-site so just as this example I’ve just run it through examples and we what we would currently do for this type of organization that's 40 employees we would do two days plus half a day audit report writing, so it actually comes out exactly the same number for medium risk on this yeah, because it's 2.4 we'll always round that up to the nearest half a day yep so it comes out exactly the same number so there's no impact there.
 
OCAP LOW AND HIGH RISK

27:49 - We also ran exactly the same scenario with 40 employees but one for higher risk and one for low so if you've been good, good performance, good history you then go into the low risk yeah, so that's on the left hand side and then if you've not been so good with your performance you go on the high risk which
 
28:07 - is on the right-hand side. You'll notice here it does actually have an impact on the time, not so much for the high risk you still stay in the same band, all day duration is two days audit time is 2.4. However, on the low risk you can actually reduce your audit time by half a day now, so all
 
28:27 - the iteration is 1.5 and then the audit time would be 1.8 we'd round that up again to the nearest half a day so that'll be two days so basically you're saving half a day of your audit time for this type of organization, which could be a bit cost saving really. Obviously the numbers
 
28:47 - change as you go up you know the more employees the greater the impact but for 40 employees that's what the change would be. So you'll also notice in there the maximum reduction is up to 50 percent, so how you get up to 50% is when you've been really good in honesty.

PBS/RP Qualification Requirements

29:10 - So they've introduced what they call a PBS/RP process. This requires an initial qualification and then an annual qualification, this will warrant you to receive the 50% reduction so the initial qualification you need to have completed at least one cycle.
 
29:35 - So that means you need to have gone through initial assessment and recertification that will, so basically new organizations don't qualify for that you need to have at least three years records of another assessment. We need to do the annual performance results for the OCAP
 
29:54 - that's fine. Internal audit program you've got to have an annual audit of the QMS in total some organizations don't do a full audit of their internal audits, they might miss out training or calibration or something like that and just cycle it in every two or three years and saying you can't do that it's got to be every year, you've got to cover the full system not too difficult to do.
 
30:23 - A continual audit program not event driven risk-based, so you people's management systems and internal audits should be kind of risk-based anyway, that's what you should be doing so you know looking at the risks of the organization looking at your processes and building that into your audit program.
 
30:44 - Input driven KPIs customer complaints that's using their KPI data to drive your internal audits feeding that back into the system, actually done a webinar sorry a training session on this two days ago we are running some more which I’ll go into quite a bit of detail on this if anyone's interested. Changes you know it's basically managing your internal audit program
 
31:09 - more effectively not just doing the same program every year it's based on risk performance things like that changes. You'll notice in their competent internal auditors as well, if you go back to the OCAP Tool one of the requirements for the auditors sorry one of the risk things was for their internal auditors. What they're basically
 
31:35 - building in is the internal auditors need to have attended the same training courses that we have, so we have to attend what they call an AATT course it's actually changing but that's what it is currently. If you've attended that you can then go into the low risk category, what they're saying is to do the PBS and RP qualification you need to have attended
 
31:58 - that training, you don't need to be registered on oasis that's kind of something different, but you need to have attended the same courses that we do, they're basically saying you're kind of as good as we are so that's one of the things you need to do. So if you're a consultant
 
32:16 - it might be worth you looking at getting yourself on the training courses I wouldn't do it yet because they are all changing I’d wait near the time get on the newer courses, but it might be a sort of selling point for you because you can help drive this sort of these processes that can reduce their clients audit time so it might be quite beneficial there.
 
32:39 - Need to create ethics policy ethics is implied in the standard at the moment but they haven't got a requirement for a policy a strict policy, seems strange to me that they've put it in here because it's not in AS9100 but that's what they've created so you'd need to create an ethics policy, documented things like that. No major NCRs
 
33:06 - this could be quite contentious you know if someone's striving for PBS/RP and an author wants to raise a major, can get quite interesting, so we're going to have to be sure that we're definitely on a major you know we don't raise him for the sake of it but there's quite a lot of pressure on us and obviously if we get things wrong then there's a lot of
 
33:29 - pressure on us we can get a certificate suspended so yeah there's going to be a bit of interesting conversations going on there. Kind of been suspended in the last six years doesn't happen often people do get suspended obviously but doesn't happen too often so again it's about keeping your nose clean keeping the performance up things like that.
 
33:53 - Okay and no violations regulatory approvals, it's kind of self-explanatory so once you have the initial qualification you can reduce your time by 50% and then we just have to do an annual review of that just to make sure you're still performing as you should, yeah we haven't raised any major non-conformances and things like that, so it's not hard thing to maintain as long as you're keeping your performance up and you're driving your KPIs looking for continual improvement and not letting your system slip so it could be a huge cost saving for some organizations.

Transition Timeline

34:35 - Okay so the transition timeline. which I think answers your question Demi. If I’m reading it right the accreditation bodies such as UKAS or ANAB depending on where you are they will have to be approved within 12 months of publication, I’ll go into when this is going to be released in a second. Certification bodies such as NQA we will then need to get
 
35:04 - accredited 18 months after the publication date yep so basically six months after UKAS have to be and then all existing certificates will transition at their next recert. So it depends where you are in your cycle to when this comes out as to when you're likely to get the sort of audited to the new process. Okay so your site could stay at campus for a couple of years
 
35:34 - before it switches over they're basically doing the next research. So where the hold up is on this is oasis, so the standard's actually in its final draft it's out it's basically not going to change from what we have it's all of these rules I’ve gone through they're going to stay.
 
35:54 - They haven't formally released the standard because there's a sticking point on oasis, oasis is actually going it's going to be replaced with something else possibly still called oasis but it's going to look totally different. So what they're not doing is putting money into the current system because they're throwing it all on the new system.
 
36:15 - But the problem is we need oasis to change in order to deal with these new structures and there's a new report that we've got that ties into all of this, they need to basically build that into the software and oasis they're a bit hesitant to do that at the moment, so it's just a there's a bit of a standoff they still think this standard will come out this year, they're
 
36:40 - just trying to work out what's realistically possible because they want to get this standard out quickly and get everyone through as soon as possible because otherwise this could go on for three, six years or something like that. So, I expect 
 
36:53 - sort of this year it will come out, so I imagine two years from now clients should start going through the process probably being certified maybe 18 months but you know I feel that's probably a realistic time frame there.

Impact on you as a Client

37:10 - Okay so kind of things to look out for you as a client we're going to be putting a lot more attention on the KPI performance we're actually upping our game now on this we've done quite a bit of training internally some more went out yesterday.
 
37:29 - Just so the authors can start putting a little bit more not too much pressure which is the wrong word but trying to encourage clients to up their game with their KPIs, just to sort of start getting you up there because you know want to help you drive your performance up and sort of get into these low wristband categories really.
 
37:49 - But that's something you've got to focus on yourselves obviously drive that performance.
 
37:55 - Possible changes to auditors I mean that's always the case, so there's nothing really you need to worry about it's just we're always cycling through auditors anyway. Site structure again depend on the site structure you're on at the moment that can have an implication. The audit planning that's something you will be penalized on so the
 
38:18 - data gathering forms that we currently send out really we should be filling those in if you don't receive them from our system our authors should be chasing you for them yeah fill those in get them back, we do actually look at those believe it or not they're just not formed just to fill
 
38:35 - in we actually use that for our audit planning so when we don't get those back it can make it quite tricky but say with the OCAP Tool that's coming in you're going to be forced to fill those in, if not you will receive non-conformances. Assure your data is true and accurate I had a classic one
 
38:53 - yesterday one of our authors was on site company was presenting 100% on time delivery and quality he asked to see the data and the actual data sold it totally different we're talking like 50% it was hugely different, you'll be quite strongly you'll be penalized for that now but we're going to be a lot stricter on that in the in the new standard because it does
 
39:17 - have an impact on your audit time, so don't just think you can put in and say we're 100% on time delivery because we will be challenging the data checking it's accurate and if it's not then you get non-conformances. Start driving your on-time delivery and quality, yeah not just for one or two customers you've got to raise the bar for all the customers yeah so start looking at that.
 
39:42 - Internal audit training I say that's something that many of you can start to look at as well wait for the new training to come out they are working on that that standards actually out at the moment so we'll probably start seeing those being announced quite soon we're actually looking at that ourselves and how we can deliver that. And the pair scores those will impact the results you know the one to five you want to make sure you're getting the fours on the five so if you are missing your KPIs make it make sure you've got actions in place to sort of address the KPIs short force okay.

Questions & Answers

40:25 - So that's the end of kind of the update there's a few other little bits in the standard but they don't really impact clients they impact us quite a lot, there's nothing really that impacts clients and consultants so I haven't covered those so just go through the questions hopefully Demi that answered you when does the auditor time begin at the time of the release of the new requirement.
 
40:45 - Oh the cycle for the six, no they'll use the historic data for that, so if someone's been with you first five years already that will switch out they'll just they won't start the clock again for that yeah they'll cycle through that. I think that answers David’s question as well actually yeah so it basically looks back retrospectively because it is something we already do
 
41:13 - they're just tweaking it so we every year we look at that, we generate reports we pull the data from our system and oasis and we see how many audits an author has done. So David can customer on time delivery and DPPM scorecard data to be used or is it self calculated data requirement? Not sure what you mean there can customer on time delivering DPPM scorecard be used.
 
41:47 - Yeah so, oh your customer data that's a good question actually David.
 
41:59 - I’d probably, I’d probably say no because you have to look at more than just one customer because they're asking you to look at across the client base not just one of them so it depends on the customer data you're being presented but 
 
42:14 - I’ll probably hazard a guest to say no, if you look at the supply chain handbook that document that I referred to gives you a little bit more detail on what they're expecting in there, I say it's free to download. So Kevin I have a stage one in May and
 
42:34 - stage two later this year this won't impact this no correct it won't because it's not out just yet, so, you're still on the current standard really that's how that works so. Private hassle authentication approved lead autumn course no 100 is it enough for internal audit disqualification probably tas approved now it'd have to be the AATT course yeah, that you have to attend they've
 
43:03 - kind of got these three ratings is basically if you've got 9001 or at nothing you go on high risk if you've done like a the as9100 lead auditor sorry the AATT you're going medium risk and if you're oasis there you go low risk so that there's different categories for that but yeah just a
 
43:28 - lead auditor course 9001 with as900 tagged on wouldn't be enough, doesn't hurt but it won't benefit the for the reduction in time. Being a low volume company, I see the KPIs were customer adversely affecting us some of our customers only get one unit per year if we were late on that yeah.
 
43:50 - That Nigel yes that does can be a problem yeah if you if you're only got one delivery a year that can actually impact you yeah quite a bit I see that quite a lot, that's something you're just going to have to manage out I think so if you read the supply chain handbook document they give you quite a lot of detail in there on how to calculate your KPIs there's
 
44:16 - actually equations in there and the KPIs that you should use for each of the processes it's quite it's quite a useful document actually which will might really help you in that, but you can kind of depends on how many of your customers are the low volumes in all honesty and how that will work you know you might have a small number but you might have a huge number okay.
 
44:44 - So, can you explain the internal qualification again please okay, so there's all kinds of different qualifications out there for auditors there's 9001 you could do an internal audit 9001 you could do an IRCA or equivalent lead auditor 9001 okay but with the aerospace scheme they've got specific training requirements which is called the AATT  
 
45:14 - course, that is what they're meaning for the internal auditors basically what they're saying is if your internal auditors are the same qualification level as us they've received the same training the risk is lower because you've gone through the same training as us and as you know this whole week's course and there's online modules and everything like that, so what they're saying is if
 
45:39 - you do that you can then go into the lower category, if you've just done a 9001 or something another course or an internal to course that doesn't qualify. Yeah you have to go on the same training as us so hopefully that helps you don't have to be on oasis that's a the difference because oasis requires other information as well. Interestingly though
 
46:07 - desert training count no IRCA isn't part of the ieqg they're not actually recognized so IRCA does not count at all for the aerospace scheme okay. In terms of this well what they are actually doing is they're making it easier for auditors to get into the scheme so at the moment there's a bit of a problem it's been going on for years you know honestly where we struggle
 
46:33 - to get new orders into the  scheme, you have to have certain qualifications experience and things like that and it's quite tricky. What they're actually doing is relaxing the rules slightly I’m going off topic a little bit but might be of interest to some people so if you've got there's two
 
46:51 - levels of auditors there's AA and there's AEA, to be an AEA you have to be a lead auditor and show so many years experience in the industry and AA can be a team member so they can never lead what they're doing they're making it easier to be an AA. So if you've got a background say aerospace obviously automotive or medical something like that they can actually allow you
 
47:22 - to become an AA auditor and they're saying after three years for doing I think it's about 40 audits of being an AA they will then qualify you to be an AEA on the back of that. That's not currently something that's in but it will be beneficial. 
 
47:41 - So, if people out there have not quite got the full experience that they require or maybe some of your experience is older you know it's outside of the 10-year limit and things like that, what they're saying is okay we'll come in as an AA we'll do some extra training you get the same test that we do, be a team member for three years on so I think it's about 40 audits something like that and then if you've proven to be good they will then qualify you to an AEA and then you can go off a lead and do everything that we can.
 
48:13 - So it's quite good that they're bringing that in actually it's been something we've been crying for many years and it's going to help with the resources so if there's anyone out there that's kind of interested that's definitely worthwhile getting yourself qualified for that.
 
48:29 - So another question do we need to refresh AS9001 orders auditor training done a few years ago depends what the training was let's say the AS9001 isn't changing that's staying the same this is just an accreditation standard that's changing that will impact the clients. Yeah so you don't necessarily need to go on a training for that but if you've done the AATT for example then that qualifies you the same as us so I’m not sure what training you're referring to there.
 
49:02 - What minimum qualifications need to be a head chief technologist of a laboratory? I’m not actually sure of that because it depends on the lab and what they're doing and things like that, so I don't actually know that answer I’m afraid. Where would we read about the ultra qualifications? Okay or just auditor qualifications are in get ready AS9101,
 
49:28 - sorry as9104/3 standard. Okay so the one I’ve kind of just run through was the -1 the auto qualifications is actually in the -3 and that is out now that's a new standard a new revision and all the qualification requirements are in there for you it says there's all kinds of stuff in there, so if you'll go through that it's on the SAE white website.
 
49:58 - john bloom doing NQA issue is AS9120 will the certs meet this no. No, they don't because we don't do the full AATT course but I’ll say I am actually looking at that so we may do very shortly I’m just talking to a few people and providing that so currently no.
 
50:23 - Okay any more questions there's been quite a few questions actually. Anything else from anyone? Is the AATT available virtually?
 
50:41 - It was yes at the moment it is and there are certain modules that are online anyway, so yeah it is currently yeah the each training providers had to get special dispensation from the ieqg so it depends where you are and things like that so some are some aren't is the answer.
 
51:05 - So to do the AATT course do you need to have previous industry experience no you don't Justine, anyone can attend as long as you've been on a lead auditor course if you haven't been on a lead auto course you'll fail it because you'll just be bamboozled so as long as you've done a
 
51:22 - ISO 9001 lead auditor they will allow you to attend the courses, okay yeah so anyone can attend that.
 
51:32 - No problem. We did actually when I remember doing my course oh how many years ago quite a few years ago there were quite a lot of consultants on the training courses actually and I do know some that have attended the AATT courses just to help them with their consulting work so, it's beneficial it's worth doing if you just go in just for education then you're not under as much
 
52:00 - pressure to pass the exams because it is quite it's quite a hard exam won't lie, but if you're going there just to raise your awareness then it's not so bad, sit back and enjoy the show.
 
52:14 - So if you have an internal course you can't go on the AATT course, no you cannot, no you have to go on the 9001 lead auditor courses.
 
52:27 - I mean they might let you on but in all honesty it will just it'll bamboozle you because they don't go over legal to training that it's very different techniques and the lead auditor training wouldn't have taught you any of the sort of basic techniques that a lead auditor course would.
 
52:47 - And if you went on it you'd just be yeah it'll just cripple you too much.
 
52:53 - So yeah that's why they say at least go on the 9001. so Justine does your AS9001 course help towards the information needed for the AATT the internal one is that what you mean Justine yeah to be honest the AATT course is quite strange they don't teach you the standard there is nothing in there about learning the standard at all that's all online modules the
 
53:23 - AATT course itself is auditing techniques so I don't know if people have got experience the difference between a 9001 auditor like a QMS auditor and an aerospace auditor, it's quite different we approach things differently we think differently our auditing styles different that's all
 
53:42 - because of the AATT training okay. It's not to say we're better than 9001 or anything like that it's we're talk different techniques and we approach things differently that's what the AATT course does and I say strangely they don't teach you anything about the as9100 standard.
 
54:00 - You're expected to know that already and you have to pass online courses before you can attend the AATT which does go into the as900 standard so if you've done an internal auditor of course AS9100 for knowledge that will that you know that will help you complete the online modules you basically can't attend a classroom until you pass the online modules but
 
54:27 - they they're quite good the online modules yeah. So they're fairly straightforward to pass there's a bit of sitting down probably take a day to do each one and I think there's trying to remember now I think there's two so there's two for AS9100 and there'll be two for AS9120 if you want to do that as well but yeah they take a good day each probably.  
 
54:50 - That's what teaches you the standard. Okay anyone else? Anyone else no okay well if you do have any questions afterwards I didn't I should have I usually put my email up here but if you've got a pen my email is  michael.venner v-e-n-n-e-r @nqa.com we do have a group one as well aerospace@nqa.com.
 
55:27 - So if you can't remember my email just put it into there and if you address it to me that'll bounce around to me so if you've got any other questions afterwards just just feel free to drop us an email and happy to talk on the phone if it's easier.
 
55:42 - If anyone's got any detailed questions they want to run through I’d be to do that. Okay so I don't think there's any other questions.
 
55:53 - So I’ll bid you all goodbye I say keep an eye out we will be putting more information out about the changes that are coming in when they're coming in when we know more things you need to do we do put a lot of articles out blogs I’m going to do some more around the KPIs actually quite shortly put them out on the website I’ll put them on LinkedIn and things like that.
 
56:17 - To try and encourage clients and consultants just to kind of get the KPI a bit right because I think that's where i feel a lot of people will fall down on the new capital so try and help you as much as possible. Okay let's say these will come out to you uh we'll email them out, but if
 
56:37 - you've got any questions please don't hesitate to drop us a line okay. Keep safe, thank you.